Home Game Question

[MObank]

Hi,
I've been lurking for awhile and thought it was time to start posting.
Got a couple of questions about rulings in a home game i host.
Two situations arose recently where I had to make a call about how the hand should proceed.

The first hand was:
Players A (2500), B(3000) and C(5000) are still in the hand after the river has come.
Player A bets 1200
Player B brings it up to 2000
Player C didn't say anything and the dealer assumed she was out (her cards may have been under the table - it was her first time playing)*
So the action went back to A who called.
B then flipped her cards at which point C stated that she was still in.

* I realise that not having your cards on the table is reason enough to kill your hand but I can't be sure whether C's cards were on the table, so I guess we have to assume they were, and this was dealer error. Mind you, the dealer directed the action to A who then took his time in calling and C didn't speak up.

My call, which I'm fairly certain in hindsight was a bad one, was that C could then decide whether to bet against B's exposed hand or fold. As it turned out she bet the extra 500 to put B all-in and B (another fairly new player) folded the nut-flush.

What's the protocol for acting out of turn or missing your turn? What should I have ruled in this stituation.

The second situation was kind of similar, but happened a few games later.
Again, the final round of betting. Player's D (4000), E(2300)(first time playing), F(4800) & G(3000) are in the hand.
D bets 1400.
E raises to 2300.
F calls.
Then E flips her cards, before G and D have a chance to act.

I ruled that the remaining players could call or fold.
What's the ruling in this situation? Is E's hand dead?

Thanks.

[thret]

In the first case, her hand is dead. Your cards must not leave the table. You might give her a pass for being new, but given the action that she has observed before choosing to act there is no way you can allow her hand to play.

Acting out of turn typically gets a warning or penalty, missing your turn with this much action will just leave your hand dead. Her fault, you really have no justification for penalising the other players.

Also if player A bets 1200 on the river player B cannot raise it to 2000. It is 2400 minimum.

In the second example as in the first if someone bets 1400 it cannot be raised to 2300, it is 2800 minimum. E's hand still plays, everyone else in the hand gets free information. E needs to be given a penalty for premature exposure.

For your next game please print out the 'official' rules: PokerTDA
Read through them, then have them on hand for the game. Any decision you need to make will be in there and if people complain you can just say, 'hey - I don't make the rules'.

BTW for cash games and home games, there is a bit of rope for any and all non-standard behaviour provided all players are happy. Your job as mediator is really just to see that the game is fair and the players are enjoying themselves, if they were happy with your decisions then that is ok too.

[MObank]

Great, Thanks for the prompt reply.
I'll have the TDA rules on hand for the next game (tomorrow night).

In situation 1, B was not happy with my call (situation made worse by the fact that she's my wife she's still playing btw so she can't have been too pissed) so it's good to know what to do if it arises again. Most everyone that plays is pretty new to the game and we're only playing for fun - so it's important that things are fair and everyone is happy. Hence the post.

Your advice about betting structure begs another question:
We've been simply doing minimum bet is the big blind, all the way through.
The TDA says that a raise has to be equal to or higher than either the biggest previous raise or minimum raise for that round, which ever is higher, depending on the betting round. Obviously there is a standard for minimum raises depending on the round. What is it?

Thank you again

[WiredBullet]

The minimum opening BET on any street is the big blind ( IE - if the blinds for the level are 100 / 200, then the minimum BET is 200 ... as the big blind increases thru out the levels, so does the minimum bet.)

The minimum bet does not change thru out the hand ... the flop / turn / and river all have the same minimum.

All raises must be the at least the equivalent of the preceding full bet / raise.

EG - if there is a bet of 200 on the flop, then the minimum raise has to be to 400 (you can not raise to 350).

If player A bets 200 and player B raises it to (by 400) to 600, then if player C chooses to reraise, the minimum will be to 1000 (as the preceeding raise was 400).

Note on that preflop, the minimum raise is again the big blind... IE if the blinds are 100 / 200, you can CALL the 200 or you can RAISE to a minimum of 400.

Hope this hasn't made it too confusing, I'm sure I could make this clearer but haven't got the brain power at moment to do it.

Enjoy your home game

[thret]

As Wired said, a bet is the first action on any street, raise is the second action, reraise is the third (3-bet), and so on. It is confusing I think to call it a 3-bet, it should really be called the second raise.

So a minimum bet is always the big blind, the minimum raise is the size of the previous bet or raise with the exception of an all-in bet or raise which can be any amount.

[MObank]

That's clear. I think the only place we were going wrong is that we weren't enforcing the minimum raise (we had the minimum raise/re-raise as the bb). I'll explain it to everyone tonight.
Thank you to both of you for the help.

Cheers.

[Tony]

hey MObank, let me know where your home game is, looks like I can make some easy money.....or loose a whole lotta money

+1

[BubbleBoy]

Hi,
I've been lurking for awhile and thought it was time to start posting.
Got a couple of questions about rulings in a home game i host.
Two situations arose recently where I had to make a call about how the hand should proceed.

The first hand was:
Players A (2500), B(3000) and C(5000) are still in the hand after the river has come.
Player A bets 1200
Player B brings it up to 2000
Player C didn't say anything and the dealer assumed she was out (her cards may have been under the table - it was her first time playing)*
So the action went back to A who called.
B then flipped her cards at which point C stated that she was still in.

* I realise that not having your cards on the table is reason enough to kill your hand but I can't be sure whether C's cards were on the table, so I guess we have to assume they were, and this was dealer error. Mind you, the dealer directed the action to A who then took his time in calling and C didn't speak up.

My call, which I'm fairly certain in hindsight was a bad one, was that C could then decide whether to bet against B's exposed hand or fold. As it turned out she bet the extra 500 to put B all-in and B (another fairly new player) folded the nut-flush.

What's the protocol for acting out of turn or missing your turn? What should I have ruled in this stituation.

The second situation was kind of similar, but happened a few games later.
Again, the final round of betting. Player's D (4000), E(2300)(first time playing), F(4800) & G(3000) are in the hand.
D bets 1400.
E raises to 2300.
F calls.
Then E flips her cards, before G and D have a chance to act.

I ruled that the remaining players could call or fold.
What's the ruling in this situation? Is E's hand dead?

Thanks.

If the first one was dealer error then Player C has all their options. It doesn't even matter if they had their hands over their cards. If they where on the table then it isn't their fault.