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Thread: Stupid vs 70/30 maniac?

  1. #1
    singsing is offline PNW Novice
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    Default Stupid vs 70/30 maniac?

    Im fairly passive pre and post flop (working on my aggression). Maniacs and ultra lag's tilt me and somehow always manage to get me to stack off with no hand. I am concious of this yet I still manage to find bad spots against them. Can anyone advise strategies for a 26/6 donk to counter their play...other than switching tables, which is probably my best option. Villain is crazy - no other words for it. Light 3 betting and small raising everything. Holdem No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - Table 9-max Seat 1: ($125.40 in chips)Seat 2: ($15.80 in chips)Seat 3: ($37.60 in chips)Cutoff: DONK ($51.85 in chips)Button: MANIAC ($87.60 in chips)SB: ($41.65 in chips)BB: ($66.95 in chips)Seat 8: ($54 in chips)Seat 9: ($73.60 in chips)*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to DONK [Td Jc]folds to meDONK: raises $1 to $1.50MANIAC: calls $1.50SB: foldsBB: folds*** FLOP *** [9h 8s 2d]DONK: bets $2.50MANIAC: raises $3 to $5.50DONK:??Time to slow down? Push? Move tables?

  2. #2
    yoyo is offline PNW Elite
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    Default Stupid vs 70/30 maniac?

    You need to get your VPIP down a little and your PFR up a LOT! But you know that already. JTo is a standard hand to raise with from the cutoff, but you should be folding it if you are getting worked by the button. As played, raise more pre as a general rule - 3xbb is too small for a standard opening raise. On the flop, your lead is fine and you get raised small - you have been giving the button too much latitude to move you around and you need to take the initiative back - this does not necesarily mean a flop 3-bet, even though I think that would be fine here. What it means is you need to start taking the game to him. Whether that means 3-betting him OOP, or check/calling or check/raising or lead/calling and leading out again on turn - whatever. You need to start putting pressure on him to give you information about his hand, because it sounds like he's just raising you off everything and, even more insulting, doing it with small raises and decreased risk.For this hand, 3-bet the guy and take it from there. If you get called and miss your draw, you can lead again anyway on turn or checkraise or checkcall depending on how he plays it. If he pushes on your 3-bet on flop, you can probably call off, depending on stack sizes. Your hand is pretty good, you have 8 outs that are almost certain nut outs, and your 6 outs for J/T might be good too (though likely not if he 4-bets), but by then you'll have odds to call. Alternatively move tables or seats so that you have position on him.

  3. #3
    Blu3B3ar is offline PNW Pro
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    Default Stupid vs 70/30 maniac?

    Welcome to PokerNetwork, singsing. Based on your somewhat limited description, I think you may have to work on your preflop play, as a 26/6 style indicates you are probably limping-in way too much with speculative hands out of position. The disparity between VPIP=26%, VPIP=6%, means you're limping in (and probably cold-calling) a little too much. You can also work on your preflop aggression, but you need to do it selectively in position against tighter players.This hand is an example where over-aggression is not needed. Your relative position against the maniac is very poor because he acts after you. When a complete psycho raising maniac acts immediately after you, you need tighten the screws and play far more selectively preflop. The danger with raising speculative hands like JTo in this situation is that the maniac will very frequently 3-bet you, and if you choose to call the 3-bet, you'll be in complete quandary postflop as it is very difficult to play against a maniac out-of-position on 3 different postflop streets in a bloated largish pot. Even if the villain smooths-calls your raise, it'll be very difficult to outplay/bluff the maniac. The value you get from a maniac in this situation is by playing solid starters and making value bets at every street. That said, JTo is normally a playable hand in late position, but I'll fold if there is a maniac who acts after me.I agree with Yoyo's thoughts on bet-3betting here against a completely psycho as your overcard outs are likely to be good.Tighten up against maniacs (especially if you do not have position against them), but do not overextend yourself unnecessarily. You do not necessarily have to leave the table but you may to adjust your play to counter them effectively. EDIT: Erroneous post-flop advice removed.

  4. #4
    davidwrunner is offline PNW Grinder
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    Default Stupid vs 70/30 maniac?

    Maniacs are fun - and profitable.My approach - firstly try to pick up betting patterns to their bluffs/monsters etc, so that you can be ready to dance with them.Play tight or avoid them until you can whip them with a big hand.Now that you have shown him u only play the nuts then it is time to fight back.Raise every time he limps for a few hands and put the pressure back on him - soon he'll be looking for a new table.In short punish his looseness by playing good cards aggressively
    If you're not pissed off at the world - you're just not paying attention

  5. #5
    singsing is offline PNW Novice
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    Default Stupid vs 70/30 maniac?

    Thanks for the advice and welcome. Is my 3 bet here weak? How much do I need to raise if that's my line (when I think he's making a play)? And does that mean I'm pretty much committed to shoving turn? I've read that raising is usually the better option when OOP (is this correct?) and I have been trying to implement that but it seems everytime I do I either run into a hand or a calling station who can't let anything go. I'm uncomfortable when pot size gets out of control and I'm holding thin. Thanks for the advice about tightening up against the maniacs. I know that is optimal but when I start to get run over I just start making really dumb plays that stack me. I guess that's just part of the psychology I need to adjust to. *** FLOP *** [9h 8s 2d]DONK: bets $2.50VILLAIN: raises $3 to $5.50DONK: raises $9 to $14.50VILLAIN: calls $9*** TURN *** [9h 8s 2d] [2s]Donk:??Also, in other posts on here you refer to 'floating'. Could I please get a definition of that? Also the position HIJACK. Is that the seat before the cutoff?

  6. #6
    yoyo is offline PNW Elite
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    Default Stupid vs 70/30 maniac?

    Yes, its generally a better idea to 3-bet OOP than with position- you're on the right track. Yes, your raise is too small - the pot size is already underinflated by your small preflop raise which translates on all later streets. At this limit I would be raising 4bb at standard. As played, I would raise to around 21 or so and yes you are committed to a flop push. As played, I would just push the turn. The stack sizes are pretty good for this bet. If he calls off with a 9, you can really smash players like this with good hands, so don't worry too much. Of course, you're a big chance of winning with your 8 straight outs if your J/T outs are no good. Poker is a tradeoff on everything. If he is calling your turn push light after you've raised, let and 3-bet the flop, you'll be able to make a fortune off him by value-betting and raising him in the future. Its all very simple in theory - if he's calling too much you exploit that. If he's folding too much, you exploit THAT. I know its much harder to do in practice though, esp out of position, but its a function of experience, so keep at it. I read on some forum where a big winner said his first 100,000 hands of NL were pretty retarded, his next 100,000 hands were ok, and his 3rd 100,000 hands were brilliant. I think that's pretty much how it works. Just minimise the pain until you get really comfortable, and if you can win whilst you're learning, that's just a bonus. So don't get too caught up in results or try to get focused on profits in your first 100k hands.

  7. #7
    yoyo is offline PNW Elite
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    Default Stupid vs 70/30 maniac?

    The traditional definition of floating is calling the flop, either in or out of position with nothing - with the intention of taking the pot away from your opponent on a later street, usually the turn. I define floating as calling the flop light. Sometimes I don't know yet whether I'm floating in the traditional sense, or whether I'm just calling because I don't know for sure yet whether I have the best hand. You need to let your opponents tell you their ranges with their actions, and to do this you need to work out their tendencies, which involves floating a lot of flops early. Your later floats will be with a more defined plan in mind, specifically to take the pot with a bet when they show weakness on the turn, or represent a strong hand with a raise on the turn if you think they are the double barrelling type of player. The hijack seat is the seat just to the right of the cutoff - in a 6 max game, clockwise you will have the SB, BB, UTG or under the gun, hijack, cutoff, button.

  8. #8
    singsing is offline PNW Novice
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    Default Stupid vs 70/30 maniac?

    Thanks yoyo. That's encouraging about the 100k hands. I am far to results orientated and don't handle the swings very well. This guy ended up stacking me another two times booking in my biggest loss. I guess I just need to play my big hands faster against these guys and bet for value where I can. I was worried about this hand because I always hear the phrase 'better spot' and try to keep that in mind when I'm in these positions. I had seen him call light in big pots and yet I still try to play back at him with a draw. More patience needed I guess. Given that, I don't see how he can call there, but I'm sure I've got a lot more head scratching to do the more I play. *** TURN *** [9h 8s 2d] [2s]DONK: bets $35.85 and is all-inVILLAIN: calls $35.85*** RIVER *** [9h 8s 2d 2s] [5d]*** SHOW DOWN ***DONK: shows [Td Jc] (a pair of Deuces)VILLAIN: shows [Ad Qc] (a pair of Deuces - Ace kicker)VILLAIN collected $101.45 from pot

  9. #9
    yoyo is offline PNW Elite
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    Default Stupid vs 70/30 maniac?

    Yeah he's just a moron - just value bet players like that relentlessly. You're way ahead on the flop, and I think the turn push is fine. You have 14 live outs as it turned out, and there is really no way he should be calling your 3-bet and your turn push with A-high. Just keep on grinding at him.

  10. #10
    yoyo is offline PNW Elite
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    Default Stupid vs 70/30 maniac?

    A little bit of encouragement for you - you seem very bright and you are definitely on the right track the way you are thinking through your hands and approaching the game - just stick at it, don't worry too much about results, and I think you'll be moving up and crushing these maniacs very soon.Most learners do not get anywhere near the thinking stuff you are discussing and struggling with for a long time in their NL experience. You're almost certainly a lot closer than you think to being on top of a lot of this stuff...gl

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