mid pockets

[hip]

looking for a better way to play this hand. since i dont know where i'm at during the hand.

Full Tilt Poker Game #22400864846: $28,000 Guarantee (172817448), Table 68 - 30/60 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:45:44 ET - 2010/07/17
Seat 1: DOCKALOFT (8,505)
Seat 2: murph8788 (2,415)
Seat 3: kowboysX2 (2,800)
Seat 4: DubbSack1 (3,310)
Seat 5: cargill06 (9,656)
Seat 6: RYTHMSPECIALIS (2,783)
Seat 7: Viscous Dee (3,050)
Seat 8: hipnotic (3,340)
Seat 9: da fabby (3,795)
da fabby posts the small blind of 30
DOCKALOFT posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hipnotic [8d 8c]
murph8788 folds
kowboysX2 calls 60
DubbSack1 has 15 seconds left to act
DubbSack1 folds
cargill06 raises to 190
RYTHMSPECIALIS folds
Viscous Dee folds
hipnotic has 15 seconds left to act
hipnotic calls 190
da fabby folds
DOCKALOFT folds
kowboysX2 folds
*** FLOP *** [6c 6d 9h]
cargill06 has 15 seconds left to act
cargill06 has requested TIME
cargill06 bets 360
hipnotic has 15 seconds left to act
hipnotic calls 360
*** TURN *** [6c 6d 9h] [5d]
cargill06 bets 720
hipnotic has 15 seconds left to act
hipnotic folds

[Scott Wilson]

he may be double barrelling to dig himself out of a hole. he may also have 88- and believe you have overs. but...it's just as likely he has TT+ or 9x

did u call preflop to hit a set? or because you thought you were in front?

if you though you were in front preflop, then it's a great flop for you and you can call to the river. chances are he is going to check the river unless he has trips or better.

if you called to hit a set, then you didn't. call the flop bet and hope to check it to the river, or just fold. and definitely fold the turn. his betting seems ok for 9x, TT+.

fine as played imo. his two large c-bets into that board suggest a pretty decent hand.

[risk2Dupside]

He iso'ed a limper pre which usually narrows his range a bit; pre-antes I just check/fold flop with 88 here, turn is an easy muck.

Even with stronger hands pre antes you need to think about things like villains bet size on the flop, how many people is he barrelling into, with what range of hands can he double barrel and how your hand stacks up against that range. You have a ton of bb pre antes, half the field is bust by the time antes come in, therefore it's not really the time to play multi-street guessing games with marginal hands unless villains are superbad imo.

Two similar hands with these concepts in mind (feel free to discuss):

PokerStars Game #47166956106: Tournament #322010575, $50+$5 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2010/07/24 5:32:24 AEST [2010/07/23 15:32:24 ET]
Table '322010575 82' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: mroffthewall (2361 in chips)
Seat 2: bastinho06 (5445 in chips)
Seat 3: LuckyFlopGG (6219 in chips)
Seat 4: Broady4 (930 in chips)
Seat 5: dj_friction (2780 in chips)
Seat 6: BolsoDekno (2945 in chips)
Seat 7: risk2Dupside (2835 in chips)
Seat 8: MILLER4PR3Z (2845 in chips)
Seat 9: Schappuscha (2830 in chips)
MILLER4PR3Z: posts small blind 25
Schappuscha: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to risk2Dupside [Jc Jh]
mroffthewall: raises 100 to 150
bastinho06: folds
LuckyFlopGG: folds
Broady4: folds
dj_friction: folds
BolsoDekno: calls 150
risk2Dupside: calls 150
MILLER4PR3Z: folds
Schappuscha: folds
*** FLOP *** [Ts Td 6h]
mroffthewall: bets 274
BolsoDekno: folds
risk2Dupside: calls 274
*** TURN *** [Ts Td 6h] [9d]
mroffthewall: bets 600
risk2Dupside: folds
Uncalled bet (600) returned to mroffthewall
mroffthewall collected 1073 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1073 | Rake 0
Board [Ts Td 6h 9d]
Seat 1: mroffthewall collected (1073)
Seat 2: bastinho06 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: LuckyFlopGG folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Broady4 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: dj_friction folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: BolsoDekno folded on the Flop
Seat 7: risk2Dupside (button) folded on the Turn
Seat 8: MILLER4PR3Z (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: Schappuscha (big blind) folded before Flop

PokerStars Game #47167088224: Tournament #322010575, $50+$5 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2010/07/24 5:35:15 AEST [2010/07/23 15:35:15 ET]
Table '322010575 82' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: mroffthewall (3160 in chips)
Seat 2: bastinho06 (5370 in chips)
Seat 3: LuckyFlopGG (6094 in chips)
Seat 4: Broady4 (1080 in chips)
Seat 5: dj_friction (2780 in chips)
Seat 6: BolsoDekno (2795 in chips)
Seat 7: risk2Dupside (2411 in chips)
Seat 8: MILLER4PR3Z (2670 in chips)
Seat 9: Schappuscha (2830 in chips)
Broady4: posts small blind 25
dj_friction: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to risk2Dupside [9c 9s]
BolsoDekno: raises 50 to 100
risk2Dupside: calls 100
MILLER4PR3Z: folds
Schappuscha: folds
mroffthewall: calls 100
bastinho06: folds
LuckyFlopGG: calls 100
Broady4: folds
dj_friction: calls 50
*** FLOP *** [6d 2s 3c]
dj_friction: checks
BolsoDekno: bets 525
risk2Dupside: folds
mroffthewall: folds
LuckyFlopGG: folds
dj_friction: folds
Uncalled bet (525) returned to BolsoDekno
BolsoDekno collected 525 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 525 | Rake 0
Board [6d 2s 3c]
Seat 1: mroffthewall folded on the Flop
Seat 2: bastinho06 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: LuckyFlopGG (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Broady4 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: dj_friction (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: BolsoDekno collected (525)
Seat 7: risk2Dupside folded on the Flop
Seat 8: MILLER4PR3Z folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Schappuscha folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[TurnRiva]

Check fold flop, tech if he's running crazy numbers you can just fold pre

[paulyramone]

I understood check/fold to refer to actions when oop.
In these scenarios we are in position, so when you guys say check/fold do you mean check back if villain checks/fold to c-bet?

[risk2Dupside]

I understood check/fold to refer to actions when oop.
In these scenarios we are in position, so when you guys say check/fold do you mean check back if villain checks/fold to c-bet?

yup

[paulyramone]

So you would check back JJ in the first hand you posted?

[risk2Dupside]

So you would check back JJ in the first hand you posted?

Nope, would be betting it for protection.

[dave798111]

Nope, would be betting it for protection.

What's the difference in terms of need for protection between 88 on 669r and JJ on TT6r when the pfr checks to you? You are very rarely behind in either case, and the 88 is actually the more vulnerable hand.

I understand betting the JJ and checking back the 88 because there are more hands you can get value from in the former case (primarily lower PPs). Don't really understand betting it for protection tho? Do you think you are behind substantially more often with 88? ie you can valuecut yourself a lot?

edit: not saying I would bet the 88. I would def check the 88 and bet the JJ - just don't understand your rationale.

[risk2Dupside]

What's the difference in terms of need for protection between 88 on 669r and JJ on TT6r when the pfr checks to you? You are very rarely behind in either case, and the 88 is actually the more vulnerable hand.

I understand betting the JJ and checking back the 88 because there are more hands you can get value from in the former case (primarily lower PPs). Don't really understand betting it for protection tho? Do you think you are behind substantially more often with 88? ie you can valuecut yourself a lot?

edit: not saying I would bet the 88. I would def check the 88 and bet the JJ - just don't understand your rationale.

I think I confused you because I said c/f the 88 when in fact I meant fold when the PFR leads into us.

When it's checked to me three handed and I have JJ on TT6r I'm not planning on letting another card peel off (ie protection) when I likely have the best hand, and there are plenty of low pocket pairs that might check/call that we can get value out of, so I bet.

As for what to do in the 88 hand if it's checked to us, I probably get confused as to whether I would be betting for protection or value and just check it back