Shove or Raise

[dave798111]

ya ok got you risk. I think limp/jam > raise/call > open jam > fold. I limp a fair amount of small blinds so for me limp/jam is by far the best option.

[Strong Play]

ive been thinking a bunch about sb play this last week or so... dave, what % of the time u limp and get raised by the bb are u folding?

[dave798111]

ive been thinking a bunch about sb play this last week or so... dave, what % of the time u limp and get raised by the bb are u folding?

haha dont tell anyone but a large % of the time. Like 80% probably. I don't do it too much vs regs, but vs randoms or donks I pretty much don't have a folding range when it folds to me in the SB with say 20 - 35bbs. Depending on stacks I raise top 15% and bottom 15% and limp everything in between. Actually those numbers might be wrong but pretty much I don't raise a hand with any type of value that I am folding to a 3b eg QTo, J9o etc. I guess the only hands I would limp/call with would be the top of that range - like KJo maybe, especially if 30+bbs deep.

[intimad8or32]

i was the one saying open jam is 2nd best to limp jamming which is clearly best.

you guys keep saying raise call is great but does the bb always re raise your raise. no they dont... so often they can call there.

now the flop comes a pretty standard k 4 2 or 10 8 3 or a 9 2....now how do we play?

i asked many people and some of the lines were just awful. We just get into all sorts of spots.

Open jamming isn't that bad Risk imo. Ok it looks bad when he has 1010 or whatever but if you're raise getting it in you're still losing there. We are simply trying to avoid spots oop v solid regs. We are going to avoid being called by hands such as j10 q 10 etc that will just get us into ugly spots on 10 4 2 or q 8 3 flops or whatever.

just my 2 cents but i really dont think shove is that bad although limp jamming is the best and if he does check behind well we keep the pot smallish i guess...

[risk2Dupside]

I definitely agree with comments about limp/jamming (which is probably best), and acknowledge that shoving is still +cEV and therefore not an unprofitable move. When I call shoving 'terrible' it's just that I take issue with picking a suboptimal (yet still profitable) decision when there are clearly more profitable options available to us, and making suboptimal decisions over and over adds up to lots of lost money.

Also, I feel like when saying that raising 55 OOP vs a good player 30bb deep is gonna put you in all sorts of tough spots and therefore should be avoided is kind of results oriented. If you run the hand a thousand times and reason that:

1) raise/calling occasionally allows him to jam worse and we get to play for stacks (compared to limp/jamming where we will fold out his bluffs);
2) sometimes he just flat out folds; and
2) when he does flat us, occasionally we're going to spike a set and get value since he will probably stack off with TPGK and good draws for 30bb, and we can comfortably check/fold a TON of dodgy flops and still be left with a decent reship stack..

I can't really see why raising is that problematic. I mean, maybe this is just a slight disagreement of our views on stack sizes.. I'm sure if you had say 35bb (40bb?) you're raising here.

I think when you get down toward 20bb open shoving 55 makes a ton more sense than it does at 30bb effective.

[hip]

Just to clarify:

10BB - open shove
15 BB - open shove
20 BB - limp reraise/open shove
25 BB - raise / call?
30 BB - ??

[SwoopAE]

Open shoving 30bb is terrible.

This

Although open shoving 20-22bb would be fine and standard

I actually don't hate a limpshove if villain is active/aggro and will 3-4x it if you limp with any two

[Harry The Hamster]

Limp/call and CRAI all flops.

[allena]

Opening with 30bb. Is it a good move?

[STiG]

All in pre-flop.