Crown rake

[OzGary]

Fred Saliba, who is computer illiterate, asked me to post this.He was playing in the 2-2-4 No limit holdem on Wednesday night and they were down to 4 handed. He raised from the button and succeeded in stealing the blinds totalling $8 but Crown took $4 of this as the rake.Very next hand, he was big blind, the other blinds limped in, and it was checked to the river. Fred and one of the other blinds split the pot but after Crown took their $4 the two winning hands only got their money back, $4 each.When Fred asked if they could get some relief from the rake while it was short-handed he was told that if he didn't like it he could leave.Seems a little harsh Crown.

[Guest]

I watched this game for quite sometime and saw many pots over $500 and some as much as $800 and the cap on the rake was $4.

[Blu3B3ar]

Blind stealing is part and parcel of good and solid winning no-limit play. The current rake policy punishes this common, yet logical and sound play. In other words, raking tiny pots makes a mockery of every word that poker authors have said about the subject of blind stealing.All poker rooms and management must put more thought into their rake policies. Set the cap slightly higher but never rake hands with no flops! I believe that this is standard everywhere else in the world!

[gaz]

I am here, and today this table is no longer running.. Although it is definitely harsh to rake with no flop, very disappointing that there is no NL action.

[Bendigo]

I don't know what planet you guys are on.A no limit game with blinds of $2, $2, $4 buy-in min $100 and max topups of $300 with a rake of $4 out of the blinds is in my opinion extremely fair and if you say blind stealing is part of the game then maybe you should consider rethinking your game when the rake structure doesn't suit this.Please try and understand Crown have tried very hard to accommodate the player demand to play no limit - do you want to pay $20 per hour to play - Crown would be happy to do it but it would be a lot more expensive for you.Cheers,Bendigo.

[Blu3B3ar]

The value of stealing blinds (or stealing a small pot) is not to be under-estimated in no-limit play. It is not just winning the blinds that's the issue here. 1) The blinds may seem piddly and tiny but it is a crucial element to success where a strong "unshakable", tight-yet-aggressive image can be built by exerting his/her controlled and disciplined aggression at all stages of play will be rewarded by respect and the ability to maneuvre, outplay and confuse the opponents.2) Even in a no-limit game, an attempted blind steal is crucial for positional reasons. Players will frequent check into the bettor, but more importantly, a preflop bettor will frequently be able to take the pot easily with a significant flop/turn bet - especially with a tight image.We all know the button is the best seat in holdem poker, and an "attempted blind steal" will often win this prized seat, if some of the players call preflop.3) An excellent post-flop holdem player would frequently try to build the pot when he/she has position. Attempting a blind steal in late position also has a side advantage of "pot-building" if the blind steal fails. Hey, why not? If a player is confident in his postflop skills, why not build the pot big when he/she has good position? 4) Lastly, the blind sizes are quite large in relation to the starting stacks anyway (even more important in a triple blind structure!!). Blinds are $2, $2, $4 with a min buyin of $100, and max buyin of $300. I understand that the stacks sizes of the players can vary greatly from tens to thousands but the typical average stack of a player would be in the lower hundreds ($200-$400). This is "50 times" to "100 times" the big blind. If the starting stacks sizes are very much larger in relation to the big blind size (say "200 times"), the value of stealing a small pot becomes less important. However, this is not the case. Stealing pots has considerable value in this case in Crown where the blinds are fairly large compared to an average starting stack.To summarize, why is attempting a blind steal important in no limit holdem?1) Image2) Positional reasons3) Pot building4) Blind sizes are largeConstructive flames, criticism and discussion welcome.

[Bendigo]

You won't get any argument from me about the value of stealing blinds, I paid my rent for 20 years doing just that but if you are in a game where the rake structure makes it bad sense to do it then rather than say "they have got it wrong" think about other ways to beat the game.Thanks for a fantastic post, I will bow out of this one now but look forward to hearing comments from all the super exciting young guns coming up through the ranks.I would especially like to hear from those who believe they know how to beat a game set up the way it is with blinds of $2, $2, $4 with $4 dropped every hand BUT capped at $4. Buyin $100 and a max buyin of $300.Cheers,Bendigo.

[Blu3B3ar]

Thanks for your reply Bendigo, although I have some reservations at raking the hands with no flops, I definitely agree (and so does most readers I here) that players are getting a good deal in this game with the very low capped structure (at $4).It's cost lower than Star City anyway.

[Guest]

Why the hell is it 2,2,4 anyway? Is it purely so that there is enough in blinds to rake the $4?

[Fletcha]

The Aim is to generate more Action. NL is very hard to spread in a poker room because of the large percentage of hands that are won with no flop.The Extra blind is supposed to encourage more people to actually see a flop more often