question- fold or not to fold?

[zeeks123]

Im playing in a sattelite with 539 runners (top 5 win seats) down to final 15 and im 2nd in chips with over $100K. on the button i calla preflop minimum raise with KdQd....flop come 3d7d9d player who is 3rd in chips just under me made the raise and bets out big on flop...i call...he check the turn Ah and i check again hoping no diamond hits the river. river comes 10h and he moves all in for 67K...Fold or not to Fold??I'll post the outcome of what i did after i hear some feedback

[MakybeDiva]

You either:a) call preflop and hope you flop these cards, in which you are fully prepared to put all of your chips in; orb) fold preflopYou can't really call preflop in the hope that you flop a flush but it must contain the Ad. This is weak. Also - why on Earth do you not bet the turn? This is a perfect card for AdKx to check. I understand you're trying to trap, but when the diamond doesn't hit the river, why are you now reconsidering your action when the only thing you wanted not to hit - didn't?

[zeeks123]

The question of call or not is for the river not preflop... and the check on the turn works out best for me if the diamond doesnt hit because 1) i put him on Ad and a good kicker so if diamond doent hit he has his top pair and my check on the turn after a flop call shows weakness and a flush draw...maybe just holding Kd which when the diamond doesnt hit on the river gives my opponent the feeling he has the best hand and will bet it hard which he did...The end of the hand was i called with my flush K high and he turned over Ad3d which he raised preflop with in early position...i was crippled and ended up not making top 5 for a seat....After the hand the player was bagging me saying he wouldny push all in unless he had the nuts and barrated my call... i just dont see how in this universe im supposed to fold there with the second nuts...the only thing i regret is being 2nd in chips with 15 players left i couldve cruised into a seat if i folded fo the 67K

[MakybeDiva]

"i put him on Ad and a good kicker""After the hand the player was bagging me saying he wouldny push all in unless he had the nuts and barrated my call...""i just dont see how in this universe im supposed to fold there with the second nuts..."You're just answered your own question. Your call is dependant on the player you're up against and if he is capable of playing the nuts this way. If you put him on the Ad with a good kicker - good being K, Q, J or perhaps T - it's quite possible he has AdJd or AdTd, since he can't have the other kickers for a flush.Also, in your hand history you don't mention whether it's live (assuming not), the blind level, times at each level - they're all relevant. If you had heaps in comparison to the blinds, maybe you could fold. If you don't though, it's a different story altogether.Was your call instantaneous? Did you actually think through the way the hand was played before making a crying call or were you really confident? Actually, something else to think about - if you were this other dude, how would you have played his hand? If you'd play it the same, then you should fold. If he min-raised Ad3d early though, it's also quite possible he could do this with JdTd. Either way, I guess you're f*cked if you do, f*cked if you don't.Certainly if 2nd chipstack takes all of 3rd chipstack, you would've been sitting pretty.

[TeeCee]

[i]flop come 3d7d9d[i][i]he turned over Ad3d[i]

[zeeks123]

Sorry not the exact flop just picked cards that didnt make a straight flush or nething of the sort it was something along the lines of that...maybe...4d7d9dbut u get the point of the hand

[Damo13]

You should fold preflop as you should not be calling in this situation. Why just call this bet ??? either raise or fold you should be trying to target blinds and short stacks and not get involved. Also once you have called you either have to raise his bet on the flop or bet the turn to find where your at.

[Khnum]

Pretty harsh round, but in my opinion MakybeDiva is right.The question is how u were looked at on the table and how he was looked and how many players went in pre flop. If he's a manaic well then Ad 3d isn't something you'd put him on and you'd call. If he's a solid player however then IMO Ad 3d is a hand a solid player could have. But in the end Makybe Diva is right. If you call preflop then you must be prepared to go all in with your chips if a flush comes (which is what happened). To be honest with you, I know there are alot of donkeys out there, but this deep into a tourny (with good prizes) I really think pot odds help out. On the turn I would have made a bet of maybe 1/2 or more of the pot. In this case no matter what he has (unless it's 6d 8d, but then this also comes back to what type of player u and him are looked at) the pot odds your offering aren't what you'd need to call with a flush draw. Also no matter the stacks (unless it micro) you'd be suprised the amount of people who fold on a flush draw with 1 card to come if u offer them just about the right odds. See IMO the mind see's as two cards to come u've got a pretty good chance (which u do 35%) but with one card to come, and you offering bad pot odds, and him possibly risking 1/3 of his chip stack he wouldnt call. If he does or raises, well then you have answered your question.

[MakybeDiva]

"Also no matter the stacks (unless it micro) you'd be suprised the amount of people who fold on a flush draw with 1 card to come if u offer them just about the right odds. See IMO the mind see's as two cards to come u've got a pretty good chance (which u do 35%) but with one card to come, and you offering bad pot odds, and him possibly risking 1/3 of his chip stack he wouldnt call. If he does or raises, well then you have answered your question."You're sort of right. The stoopid thing people don't take into account is that although they think they have about a 1/3 chance of hitting a flush with a draw on the flop, that's only if you take into account going to the river. If you're only planning on seeing the turn, you only hit 1/5. Similarly if you see the turn you only hit 1/5 on the river. I see a lot of players call with a flush draw on the flop but fold to a turn bet. I see a lot of bad players call a bet on the flop and incorrectly calculate their pot odds when they call the turn bet, thinking they hit 1/3.Even if you bet, say, 1/2 the pot on the turn, and he check-raises your sorry ass, you still won't know whether you're good here or not unless you call (a der). He could have hit trip Aces, he could have the lone Ad and semi-bluff, or he could actually think he has the best hand now. This is the problem you're posed with when you call with KdQd and you get a flop like that and up against a guy willing to raise Ad3d early. The fact that it's a 3d shouldn't matter in this hand - I get an impression you were p*ssed that he had such a weak holding preflop - put that out of your mind, and next time consider that it could well be a legitimate hand like AdJd. It all comes down to the player. This hand is just all yuck. He doesn't get paid off on the river there a great majority of the time. If you play it differently and bet the turn, half of your stack is nearly already in the pot anyway. It's very player dependant.

[flusher83]

You are all correct here - hehe, but you are forgeting the major point that seems to be overlooked!Big stack chips are worth way less than small stack chips! If this player was short stacked then fair enough - call his all in on the flop or the turn, but you never call a big stacks all in on the river when you may be beaten, its suicide! Crazy stuff really.What you want to be doing in your posistion is put as little of your chips in the middle as possible, hence try and knock out the short stacks - in doing so you rack up the chips + blinds and antes WITHOUT running into the big stacks so you are never at risk.I remember playing one of these satelite's with heaps of runners. When we were near the bubble, I was short stacked and I remember some of the big stacks clashing and knocking one of the them out. Hence I was short stacked and really I was never in danger of not making a seat - classic really!