Who gets the pot? - ruling please

[Blu3B3ar]

Cards speak.As the straight flush was exposed (but unannounced), it should nevertheless take the pot.

[boomstix]

I understand the Poker Enthusiast would like to see each and every rule enforced to the strict letter. Unfortunately, in business and particularly this industry, sometimes the Tournament Director has to make a ruling which carries favour to all parties involved. Since the players decided this outcome between themselves, I decided that it was in the interest of all parties involved to leave the chips as they were.

[Strong Play]

I agree with you Bushy, it's often hard to strike the happy medium in these sorts of situations. I think in this particular situation you did the right thing. Whilst there is some decent money involved and players want to win just as badly as pros, it's a pub poker tournament; and people who play pub poker tournaments for the most part are morons who seem all to happy to donk off their entire stack with no hand (only to tell you afterwards they made the correct play). These sorts of people want a tournament in a friendly atmosphere and aren't going to be too concerned about adherence to every rule in the book if it means everyone having a good time and the game being played in a good spirit. More importantly, as a business proprietor, it's your job to give them exactly that.Any other situation, kudos to you sir, the straight flush you didn't realise you were holding is good... PAY THE MAN.

[Jonno P]

I understand the Businessman would like all their players to be happy and have no complaints so that they come back next week, but as I said, it is the Tournament Directors responsibility to uphold the integrity of the game.I think you missed the point completely. It is your responsibility as the operator of the game, to make sure that everyone knows the rules and that they are enforced correctly, and to educate players where necessary to ensure these mistakes don't happen again.Just because the players agreed to split the pot, doesn't make it the correct thing to do. What if the player with the straight flush had demanded the pot - or the player with the full house demand that that players hand be ruled dead for touching the muck? Would you have ruled differently? Poker is big business now yes - but it is still a game that should be respected and held above all else.

[Junny]

I think it's a pretty simple situation. You just have to look at it from a logical standpoint, and consider similar situations.If P2 thought he had a straight flush but only had a flush, exposed his cards and said "Oh S*^& I thought I had a straight flush," would he be awarded the pot? Of course not.If he exposed his cards in the same manner that he did here, but said nothing, should he be awarded the pot? Of course he should.If he said "Damn, I only have a flush" as a joke and showed his SF, should he be awarded the pot? Of course he should.So why should a mere mistaken belief according to his words that he was beat, even though he exposed his cards and he didn't muck them himself, make the situation any different? It shouldn't.If you think that P2 shouldn't be awarded the pot in this situation just because he misread his hand, you open the floodgates for all sorts of weird situations where what P2 actually did doesn't matter, and what P2 THOUGHT matters. That's just illogical.

[Junny]

This reminds me of a hand in a home game long time ago. There were four hearts (I think) on the board, and after the river betting was over, one player said "Kings" and flipped over two Kings, of which one was a heart.One player thought that because he said "Kings" and not "A flush", he shouldn't be awarded the pot. For some stupid reason I agreed to this, but we decided that he should have the pot anyway because it's a home game.I don't know how I believed he wasn't entitled to the pot just because he said "Kings". It's just a small situation in a home game, but I always wondered just how I agreed that he made a mistake by announcing "Kings".I mean, if you followed that stupid approach, it would mean that saying "I got the Ace", with the Ah, on a heart board could mean you mistakenly announced you only had Ace high. Or saying "I got nothing" as a joke would mean you hand over the pot.It's kinda similar to this situation, and you could apply it here.As to whether the ruling should be enforced taking into account the pub/social nature of the tournament, I tend to agree with Jonno. Even in a home game my friends and I would try to follow the rules in a way that would be logical and fair, not because we really care about the small money we play for, but because we're playing poker.

[Fletcha]

I can understand why you let the players split the pot up bushy but what happens when a similar thing happens to a player who was on that table and you rule differently? Tournament rulings may be situational some of the time but there are some fundamental rules that must be consistently ruled upon every time and "cards speak" is one of the most basic. Pub Poker may be full of new and inexperienced players just out to have some fun but there are some serious prizes available at the end of series etc. What if your player with the straight flush missed out the points he needed to make a final because some of the chips rightfully his were in another players stack? What if the player with the Full house loses what should be his whole stack yet as he has those extra chips, he survives goes on to win the event and then the final. A tournament diector at any level needs to understand that there may be unseen consequences to a ruling they make, and endeavor to rule as consistently as possible.Tournament Poker is unpredictable enough without have to guess which way a tournament director is going to rule and you never want your mistake to effect the outcome.Fletcha

[Trent]

boomstix: The Stakes are reasonably highboomstix: happens often with 'drunk donks at pub poker games' this funnily enough is exactly where this took placeHa. Does the winner get a free jug playing in the high stakes, as opposed to a pot of beer in the low stakes?

[Mike]

Bushy just remember one thing.Pub poker is where alot of players start out now. It is the best thing for the game if you teach them correct procedures from the start. As Jonno says the integrity of the game is paramount, and you have the obligation as a TD to teach new players what this is all about. By you splitting the pot this time, you are setting an ugly precedent for these 2 players, any other player on that table as well as anybody that saw you let them do it. Now what happens when any one of these guys go and play in a bigger tourney for cash or prizes at a major card room and this happens? This is not a grey area nor is it a ruling that needed to make both parties happy. This is plain and simple black and white. A straight flush always beats a full house, therefore the straight flush which was tabled gets the pot.

[joethenuts22nd]

THATS right s/flush must win the pot ,and the tourny director should make the correct decision ,so that players who then enter casinos know the rules, but there is always a but with me lol.the trouble is all casinos even in the same country have different rules.what might apply to crown might not apply to belaggio. mmmmmmmmmmm