What's your ruling?

[Boysan]

IMHO....A player has the responsibility to protect his cards (i.e., card protector is very important). If the Dealer was able to take his cards, he could have retrieved them back from the Dealer's hand before they get mucked.In this case, the player (whose cards were mucked) is out of the game for that hand.

[Stick]

Go back and check the hole cameras :PAlternatively, you could ask player 1 to state what his cards were, and then give player 2 the option to play or not, based upon what player 1 claims he had... I have a feeling player 2 would have called the all-in no matter what cards player 1 had, by the way he called so quickly...

[JK.]

A good post Gaz.More information is required before an inpartial decision is made.Was Player 1 paying attention?Was he drunk?Where was Player 1 seated and were his cards protected for a possible dealer error?Afterall,no matter how good a dealer is ,there is always a chance for a human error.A bit more information would help in determining a fair decision.

[gaz]

Fomy I think will find any unknown cards that hit the muck are gone for good. Ozzie said the cards were dead, not the hand.

[Fomy]

Gaz I only quote the TDA rules because I have been told Crown use these rules where possible. Also many clubs and casinos use the "Identifiable retrievable" rule.I am sure the TD make a very good decision as he would have much more experience than I do. I am enjoying this noticeboard, especially stories like this one. Thanks Gaz for writing it. Maybe I can put some good ones here from tournaments in Russia when I get more experience.

[Ozzie The Turk]

More info? You got it!Blinds $5000/$10000. Total Chips: About $400,000Player 1: $50K chips (button)Seat 1 (near dealer)Player 2: over $200K chips (small blind) Seat 7Player 3: about $100K chips (big blind) Seat 9Player 1 moves all-in immediately (barely seeing his second card)Player 2 calls and get chips in before Player 1. Player 3 quickly folds. action is thick and fast this all happened in a matter of seconds)Dealer "Turn your cards over please..."Player 1 "Where are my cards....."Player 1 was not drunk...a little excited maybe but not drunk.We cannot retrieve the cards. You cannot take the players word as to which cards he had. Player 1 is not 100% sure. They are gone!I appreciate a player should protect their cards but this was clearly the dealers fault. According to Crown rules, once substantial action takes place the hand must stand (since everyone wants specifics, unless the deck is found to be defective all monies will be refunded). Hence, the hand must stand.This is where it gets tricky. You dont want Player 1 to get knocked out in such an unsportsmen like manner. However, Player 2 has a monster and insists a misdeal would be bullshit as substantial action has occurred. Player 3 wants 2nd place and wants Player 1 hand declared dead. So what do you do?

[joethenuts22nd]

CASINO rules are simple ,cards hit the muck ,cards are dead,but if cards are turned over and then hit the muck ,cards are retrevable.to all out there there is no rule in the rule book at crown that makes a dealer at fault.there is no rule to say the casino is at fault.if a dealer makes a mistake ,a dealer or the casino cannot be blamed for it.a tournament director can at any stage make a decision that might not be right.he has the right,even if he is wrong.A hand which I observed at the aussie millions this year.2 players all in ,player1 has pocket 10s player2 has pocket ks ,some how before the flop the dealer mucks the pocket 10s .so the tourny director was called ,because the 10s were shown ,the cards were alive ,but with one problem nobody could verify which 10s the player had ,and because it was in the new section of the room cameras could not help.so what do you think happened next,the tourny director pulled out any 2 10s and the play resumed,very grey area when flushes could of held the key to the hand .p.s the kings held up.

[JK.]

OK,I will take a stab.If Player 1 was sitting near the dealer(actually,it does not matter where he was sitting)and he was not protecting his cards,his hand is dead once it hit the muck.The hand must continue since there was sufficient "action".There can be no compromise,splitting the pot etc,as this disadvantages player 3.Actually,with the above information,this is quite a straight forward decision.A tournament director can not feel sorry for player 1 and put the other players at a disadvantage.

[Stick]

This is a great thread... but I'm clearly running out of ideas...Scissors, paper, rock?

[Strong Play]

My turn:If this was the final table and I was TD, i would be overseeing, so I would be able to make a determination whether player 1 did enough to protect his cards. If i think they did not, the cards are mucked and he has no chance at the pot.If he made a real attempt ie. hands on or over the cards or was in the act of putting a card protector and I deemed that the dealer should not have taken the cards, i would gather the pile of mucked cards, enquire of the 3rd player what his cards were, do the same for player 1, if all cards are EXACTLY correct, i would allow player 1's hand to stand and play it out.I know this potentially disadvantages player 3, but it could potentially advantage that player in certain circumstances.A lot in my opinion hinges on the TD overseeing the table however, and being able to make a determination on how actively player 1 protected his cards.Without being able to make that determination i would deem the cards as mucked and award the pot to player 2.