Another Bad Article

[DoctorDangerous]

Originally Posted by Starcitybust

P.s., my mate who is an editor at the Sydney morning herald, and a poker network reader, has just suggested one of their journos look into the story of these poker players winning so much and not paying taxes. Will be interesting to see how that works out.

Very strange reply to my comment that was passing on actual facts - no malice, judgement or agendas involved (well, perhaps a little).

HOWEVER,

"Was a reversal of what was said to me. Was not a threat or a reality. I would like to think that anyone who read that can see how it was meant after what was said to me.

Although, I quickly am getting the feeling that I am becoming an enemy of this forum, even though I have done nothing but be polite.

Anyway, I shall sign out and not return, before this turn I feel takes place."


After the above comment, I guess I don't need to bother about your misinformed, knee-jerk comments anymore...yipeeeee!

[FSL009]

Now the original point i was trying to make was it is unlikely they will recognize pokers as a legitimate source income or a profession for the pourpose of taxation was because of possible tax loopholes allowing for tax credits based on losses occurred in a downswing. You keep restating "deferral of losses on non-commercial activities", but if they were to acknowledge poker as a taxable profession than any losses suffered by a business established for the purpose therein would be, get this, direct commercial activities.

I dont quite understand why you keep going back to wanting to put this in a company.

but will accept i didnt understand that you did have a purpose to this discussion about companies.

because poker is a personal activity, putting it into a company is not possible, agree with this, even if you did put those activities into a company you would end up having the income attributed to the player. if it was taxable in the first place.

I think we agree on this, now that it is a little clearer what you were saying.

once we agree it is a personal activity then the non-commercial loss rules are relevant. if you assume that it is a gambling activity that is done with a view to profit and in a commercial like manner and taxable, but as we know in the most part its not taxable.

Anyway, what i was originally trying to point out was that you dont get out on a luck v skill analysis you get out on a hobby v view to profit/commercial activity analysis generally.

Thanks for putting up the points chenyan, I was also trying to finish a major income tax return last night for a client and didnt have time to go and cut and paste them between reading the posts and doing my review.....

I think we all are heading in the right direction anyway. ROME. where poker is regulated and legal....

[USUALSUSPECT]

It is not a personal activity when you invest full time in your skills for purpose of profit.

Honestly, I don't give two fucks what the ATO tells me is 'legislation'. That does not make it right.
And fwiw, I do not give a fuck whatsoever what the Government tells me 'they believe is correct'
It only serves them. Not me.

From my understanding, the Governments stance on 'legalities' bases itself on whatever the fuck they are feeling at any one point in time regarding how best it's serves their 'thieving, lying, faggot, scum agenda.'

We can't control that, we don't like that - *stamp* - 'ILLEGAL'

We can manipulate, exploit and profit from that - *stamp* - 'LEGAL'

[FSL009]

Lolz maybe, but that is why we have a court system and an appeals system.

so people that dont like decisions can take them to a higher power until they get to the high court.

shame its a little expensive for this to actually happen but anyway...

[bishop]

Evening All,

I think there are quite a few different arguments going on in here and I think I should state that regulation does not necessarily mean individuals will be taxed.

First of all the legislation governing online gaming is complaint based, that means a complaint must be lodged with the ACMA and that body investigates the claim. If they find that the complaint is viable and required further investigation and in turn prosecution they will escalate the complaint and findings to the AFP.

The AFP then investigate and decide whether to prosecute or warn accordingly.

Poker is now widely accepted as a game of skill and under the IGA any game that is a game of chance or skill with an element of chance is deemed illegal. There is scope to argue that Poker is not an illegal game simply because of the inherent skill factor, granted there are elements of chance but then that argument then requires clear delineation of skill and chance, and what percentage of each element provides a legal and illegal game.

If the industry is to be regulated, such as sportsbetting is now, then a tax model would be designed and a license fee applied to those corporations/companies who pass compliance and are issued a license. This is the one area where the government would be focused on revenue raising as well as instigating industry rules and regulatory bodies to ensure "ethical operations and protection" of the citizenry.

Now at this time online Sportsbetting is the fastest growing gaming segment within Australia and the majority of operators are licensed and paying their fees and taxes to Federal and State Govts. There are still a select few offering this service who are not, it is my belief that these companies would be the first targets of any illegal gaming prosecutions.

Finally, now that sports betting is a fully regulated industry I am interested to see how many regular (once a week) punters are required to lodge a return or even if they claim losses - or whether even the ATO cares about these cases. I must admit to being completely ignorant on this fact and would be interested to see if any others are aware of taxation law or cases governing income derived from Sports betting.

I think the taxation on individual argument is very premature and suggest that there are many other hurdles and discussions to be had long before full time grinders are required to lodge tax returns, but I will say that eventually a regulated industry will breed a requirement for individuals to pay for the service offering either on a taxation level or a higher service cost from the provider.

[FSL009]

I must admit to being completely ignorant on this fact and would be interested to see if any others are aware of taxation law or cases governing income derived from Sports betting.

The tests are the same as indicated above.

[mypokergame]

Thanks FSL009, Bishop and UsualSuspect. Bishop, ft grinders still have to put in a tax report every year don't they? They would be at least a sole trader? Everyone has to pay tax unless you find a way through a church or go Royal.

If you can only show a tax auditor that you have made money from poker you are going to have to pay tax on it. If you don't now and it catches up to you 10 years down the track you are going to have to pay or they'll throw you in jail.

I understand there can be complexities between individual cases and the law so I wonder how I will go as a website owner and gaming commission agent that plays poker. I expect if I earn a feasible amount from website commission I won't need to bring poker in to it and keep it all as tax free gambling winnings.

If I can only show gross profit from website income around 6-10k I could be red flagged and then audited. I would then have to show a poker account unless they figure out how to get a hold of every account and if they managed that and it showed I made say 30k on top from poker then it could get ugly for me or I might get the opportunity to play along with them and cough up roughly 20% on that and move on to the next year. Then if I get an income happening other than poker I believe I wouldn't have to pay taxon poker that year. I think that's the key, a legit as possible income for tax purposes, then you're just a gambler not having to pay tax on winnings.

So the tax laws to me seem very vague and exploitable so you can play their game by giving yourself as many outs as possible. To me it seems better than to take your own line and not put in your appropriate tax forms. If that's what some of you seriously do then I feel a lot better about my position.

[Michael Josem]

Originally Posted by bishop

Evening All,

I think there are quite a few different arguments going on in here and I think I should state that regulation does not necessarily mean individuals will be taxed.

Regulation in most countries (such as France, Italy) have included taxes on play, rather than taxes on income. It is collected by the site, but it is still effectively a tax on the individual players, 'cause they end up paying the rake which goes to the tax.

Even an indirect tax system effectively taxes consumers, in just the same way that the end-users of goods and services pay the GST.

If the industry is to be regulated, such as sportsbetting is now...

The industry is currently regulated, it is just regulated in some good and credible jurisdictions (eg, Isle of Man, Italy, France, Belgium) and in some shonky jurisdictions (Kahnawake, Alderney).

Some of the xenophobia in both the US and Australian media on this issue is frankly racist in their suggestion that people outside their own country are unable to do a proper job of this.

Finally, now that sports betting is a fully regulated industry I am interested to see how many regular (once a week) punters are required to lodge a return or even if they claim losses - or whether even the ATO cares about these cases. I must admit to being completely ignorant on this fact and would be interested to see if any others are aware of taxation law or cases governing income derived from Sports betting.

This is not interesting at all, as the regulation of online gambling on sports has had no impact on the tax issues involved in these operations.

I think the taxation on individual argument is very premature and suggest that there are many other hurdles and discussions to be had long before full time grinders are required to lodge tax returns,

These comments are wrong, some full-time grinders are currently required to lodge tax returns (if they are operating a business).

but I will say that eventually a regulated industry will breed a requirement for individuals to pay for the service offering either on a taxation level or a higher service cost from the provider.

Yes, Government regulation will likely lead to higher costs to play poker. Alternatively, the Government could follow the approach of the UK who have been quite 'non-interfering' about the whole issue.

[Michael Josem]

Originally Posted by mypokergame

Thanks FSL009, Bishop and UsualSuspect. Bishop, ft grinders still have to put in a tax report every year don't they? They would be at least a sole trader? Everyone has to pay tax unless you find a way through a church or go Royal.

It depends whether they have any taxable income, which is dependent upon the Federal Court's six tests of gambling businesses.

I understand there can be complexities between individual cases and the law so I wonder how I will go as a website owner and gaming commission agent that plays poker. I expect if I earn a feasible amount from website commission I won't need to bring poker in to it and keep it all as tax free gambling winnings.

The more money you receive from gambling businesses associated with your gambling, the more likely your whole gambling operation will be considered as a business.

I am not a lawyer/accountant, this is not expert advice, you should go get expert advice.

[rickwaa]

I think the big picture is that is poker online gambling? Do you think that online pros are just lucky people, consistently winning over 5 years. Poker could easily be proven in court that the skill edge is far greater than the gamble aspect..




Now all I have to do is find that skill edge...